Ford catch can update. First check on cans

[Roughstock]

Hi Everyone,

I checked my Ford Catch Cans the other day after an oil change. Not entirely sure how many miles I put on before the check since it was between oil changes and I did not note how many miles when I put them in. I thought I reset Trip 1 or 2 but it didn't look like I did. I will recheck tomorrow. I would guess about 2500 miles.

There was nothing in the drivers side can - bone dry. The passenger can has some oil. A very small bit on the on bottom of the can.

You can see here with the tow pics.

I am happy I put them in. I will have a better report at my next oil change. I will be putting engine through its paces before then for sure.

 

[TurboS]

Hi Everyone,

I checked my Ford Catch Cans the other day after an oil change. Not entirely sure how many miles I put on before the check since it was between oil changes and I did not note how many miles when I put them in. I thought I reset Trip 1 or 2 but it didn't look like I did. I will recheck tomorrow. I would guess about 2500 miles.

There was nothing in the drivers side can - bone dry. The passenger can has some oil. A very small bit on the on bottom of the can.

You can see here with the tow pics.View attachment 14658

View attachment 14659


I am happy I put them in. I will have a better report at my next oil change. I will be putting engine through its paces before then for sure.

I think your findings of the passenger side canister with some oil collection, while the drivers side has none, is as expected and normal for 2500 street miles. The passenger side canister outlet air tube connects to the intake manifold behind the throttle body, which is post both turbo's therefore maximum boost. The drivers side outlet air tube connects to the drivers side intake tube pre turbo therefore has less vacumn pulling the air/oil mixture through the drivers side separator canister. I'm guessing this may be why the aftermarket single valve units are all separating air/oil from passenger side only. With usage in the higher RPM's the drivers side canister should have oil collection but may still be less than the passenger side. So the passenger side is primarily avoiding oil/carbon collection on the intake valves while the drivers side is preventing oil collection on the drivers side turbo vanes, intercooler and the also the intake valves however it's also a lesser air volume. This is how our engines were engineered/designed as the canisters simply insert into the existing valve cover breather air flow to separate the hot oil evaporating mist from the air.

 

[Roughstock]

I think your findings of the passenger side canister with some oil collection, while the drivers side has none, is as expected and normal for 2500 street miles. The passenger side canister outlet air tube connects to the intake manifold behind the throttle body, which is post both turbo's therefore maximum boost. The drivers side outlet air tube connects to the drivers side intake tube pre turbo therefore has less vacumn pulling the air/oil mixture through the drivers side separator canister. I'm guessing this may be why the aftermarket single valve units are all separating air/oil from passenger side only. With usage in the higher RPM's the drivers side canister should have oil collection but may still be less than the passenger side. So the passenger side is primarily avoiding oil/carbon collection on the intake valves while the drivers side is preventing oil collection on the drivers side turbo vanes, intercooler and the also the intake valves however it's also a lesser air volume. This is how our engines were engineered/designed as the canisters simply insert into the existing valve cover breather air flow to separate the hot oil evaporating mist from the air.

Thank you for your concise explanation. This helps a lot to understand what's going on. Appreciated.

I also checked my trip gauge. It seems 1700 miles is probably more accurate than 2500 miles. My trip 1 was about 1750 miles and trip 2 was about 1650. I remember resetting a trip. Don't know why I didn't see this the other day. So 1700 miles is probably more accurate than 2500 miles.

 

[Ape Factory]

Air/oil separators cannot hurt but they will not prevent, or even significantly lessen, carbon buildup on the intake valves. Almost all of the deposits are created during valve overlap events, where partially burned, hot hydrocarbons are deposited onto cooler intake valves through intake reversion and a condensation process.

The only way to keep the valves clean is to spray fuel with a detergent package onto the stem and back of the valves. Methanol doesn't work, water doesn't work.

Forced induction engines tend to have less carbon buildup since there's less reversion due to the intake side being positively charged. So basically drive it hard and you'll have less carbon buildup. Drive lightly with the engine producing vacuum, more carbon buildup. Hopefully gas prices drop!

It'll be interesting to see how bad a Raptor motor is after say 60K miles. I manually cleaned (walnut blast) my last DI car which had a naturally-aspirated V8 engine that revved to 8800 rpm. It'd lose 20hp peak, and more torque, after about 50K miles and the valves looked pretty nasty. But again, with forced induction, it won't be nearly as bad.

If the Raptor had been naturally aspirated and DI, honestly, I wouldn't have bought it. Been there done that and it's a PITA. I have the FSM but haven't dived into it yet to see how challenging it is getting the intake manifold off to inspect the valves. Assuming Ford doesn't specify any cleaning unless an issue can be directly attributed to carbon buildup. That likely won't happen within the normal warranty period or even before 100K miles.

 

[TurboS]

Air/oil separators cannot hurt but they will not prevent, or even significantly lessen, carbon buildup on the intake valves. Almost all of the deposits are created during valve overlap events, where partially burned, hot hydrocarbons are deposited onto cooler intake valves through intake reversion and a condensation process.

The only way to keep the valves clean is to spray fuel with a detergent package onto the stem and back of the valves. Methanol doesn't work, water doesn't work.

Forced induction engines tend to have less carbon buildup since there's less reversion due to the intake side being positively charged. So basically drive it hard and you'll have less carbon buildup. Drive lightly with the engine producing vacuum, more carbon buildup. Hopefully gas prices drop!

It'll be interesting to see how bad a Raptor motor is after say 60K miles. I manually cleaned (walnut blast) my last DI car which had a naturally-aspirated V8 engine that revved to 8800 rpm. It'd lose 20hp peak, and more torque, after about 50K miles and the valves looked pretty nasty. But again, with forced induction, it won't be nearly as bad.

If the Raptor had been naturally aspirated and DI, honestly, I wouldn't have bought it. Been there done that and it's a PITA. I have the FSM but haven't dived into it yet to see how challenging it is getting the intake manifold off to inspect the valves. Assuming Ford doesn't specify any cleaning unless an issue can be directly attributed to carbon buildup. That likely won't happen within the normal warranty period or even before 100K miles.

You may have already viewed this video, if not it's a great explanation and demo of this issue. Unfortunately, Turbos can make the situation worse as they age.

Direct Injection, Problems and Solutions | The Fine Print - By Savagegeese

The video below brought to my attention by @ChiliPepper. Savagegeese, Mark, does a great job of explaining why an Oil Catch Can is needed on our engines for preventive maintenance. For your reference when watching this video our Bronco Raptor 3.0L twin turbo engine has Direct Injection (DI)...

www.broncoraptor.com

 

[Roughstock]

You may have already viewed this video, if not it's a great explanation and demo of this issue. Unfortunately, Turbos can make the situation worse as they age.

Direct Injection, Problems and Solutions | The Fine Print - By Savagegeese

The video below brought to my attention by @ChiliPepper. Savagegeese, Mark, does a great job of explaining why an Oil Catch Can is needed on our engines for preventive maintenance. For your reference when watching this video our Bronco Raptor 3.0L twin turbo engine has Direct Injection (DI)...

www.broncoraptor.com

That is a great video, good to watch again. Thanks

 

[Ape Factory]

Haven't watched it but yeah, as the bearings and then seals in the CRHA wear, they can leak oil into the compressor and/or turbine side. It usually collects in the intercooler, especially front mount air to air IC's like we have. Probably a good practice to clean out the IC every 30K miles. Some of it does make it into the combustion chamber but again, the amount of actual carbon it creates from turning into volatiles and unburned hydrocarbons is relatively minuscule.

But if it were a major issue, Ford would have installed an air/oil separator from the factory. Then again, their only real intention is to make it past the warranty finish line.

I've owned more than a few turbo vehicles in my lifetime, have even designed a few turbo systems and even though I'm mechanically inclined, I bought an extended warranty as I know it's unlikely both turbos will make it past 100K. I'm at 14K and I can already smell oil when the car idles for a bit. I just don't trust the 3.0L's design/complexity but I suppose I should do a bit more research. Kinda sucks as I'm a modaholic, like I have it really, really bad , but I have to stay the course due to the extended warranty.

 

[Ape Factory]

Ok so I just watched a bit of the video and just a few thoughts. He's mistaken on compressor blow-by being the main source of carbon buildup. Companies (who aren't trying to sell you catch cans) have done extended tests and have seen no effective change in carbon buildup long term. I am the owner of a performance-oriented automotive company and many of the vehicles I cater to are DI motors. I could easily make catch can systems for any of them but it's disingenuous. I will occasionally whittle something up for a customer who insists.

Air/oil separators are there to reduce emissions, plain and simple. Back in the day, cranks and cylinder heads all vented to atmosphere. There are hp/efficiency gains to be had in creating negative crank case pressure.

What I usually recommend is more frequent oil changes (every 5K) and DO NOT let your car sit and warm up (remote start is really, really bad but yes, I still use it on occasion). Get in, start the car, drive as soon as you're able. This'll warm up the internals more quickly than idling and the piston rings will expand and start sealing sooner. This prevents volatiles (gas) from diluting your oil via blowby past piston rings that haven't fully expanded thermally creating a better seal between it and the cylinder wall. Those vapors get recycled via the PCV and don't collect in a catch can as its method of operation is condensation.

In order to consensate, there must be enough of a temp differential for it to occur (aka partially burned hot hydrocarbons hitting a "cool" intake valve). Those volatiles remained only partially burned as they're not processed to the extent that gas is and don't burn as efficiently. When both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time, however briefly, reversion occurs where the charge or burned gasses momentarily reverse flow due to pressure changes from positive to negative vacuum, forcing the gasses into the intake port. This is why positive pressure, created by the turbos, lessens carbon buildup as it's restricting reversion of combustion gasses.

Unfortunately the Braptor hasn't been out long for owners to experiment and I'm not aware of any long-term studies done on the 3.0L Ecoboost. I'd be open to reading any info though, just not from some guy projecting animation onto a wall. I will say it's a good overview of DI vs. port injection although it's pretty basic. There are big performance advantages to DI on both n/an and turbo motors. And many Toyotas use a throttle body injector, and not multi-port, to keep the valves clean. They've been doing it since the start of DI motors. No idea why Ford chose to forego a port or throttle body injector.

Understand that just because you're emptying a catch can that's full of oil, doesn't mean that oil is depositing on your intake valves and causing carbon buildup in the same ratio. Yes, a very, very small amount is in fact causing carbon buildup but if you were to install 20 catch cans, 10 on either bank, you'd still have carbon build up on the intake valves.

I know what you're thinking...what about the exhaust valves? After all, they're bathed in the exhaust gasses each combustion cycle. Well, they're almost as hot as the combustion chamber and thus, no condensation. Additionally, getting things hot, you can actually burn off the carbon. Take your DI motor out on the Autobahn and run it at top speed for two hours straight. Your intake valves will be as clean as a whistle!

 

[Roughstock]

Ok so I just watched a bit of the video and just a few thoughts. He's mistaken on compressor blow-by being the main source of carbon buildup. Companies (who aren't trying to sell you catch cans) have done extended tests and have seen no effective change in carbon buildup long term. I am the owner of a performance-oriented automotive company and many of the vehicles I cater to are DI motors. I could easily make catch can systems for any of them but it's disingenuous. I will occasionally whittle something up for a customer who insists.

Air/oil separators are there to reduce emissions, plain and simple. Back in the day, cranks and cylinder heads all vented to atmosphere. There are hp/efficiency gains to be had in creating negative crank case pressure.

What I usually recommend is more frequent oil changes (every 5K) and DO NOT let your car sit and warm up (remote start is really, really bad but yes, I still use it on occasion). Get in, start the car, drive as soon as you're able. This'll warm up the internals more quickly than idling and the piston rings will expand and start sealing sooner. This prevents volatiles (gas) from diluting your oil via blowby past piston rings that haven't fully expanded thermally creating a better seal between it and the cylinder wall. Those vapors get recycled via the PCV and don't collect in a catch can as its method of operation is condensation.

In order to consensate, there must be enough of a temp differential for it to occur (aka partially burned hot hydrocarbons hitting a "cool" intake valve). Those volatiles remained only partially burned as they're not processed to the extent that gas is and don't burn as efficiently. When both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time, however briefly, reversion occurs where the charge or burned gasses momentarily reverse flow due to pressure changes from positive to negative vacuum, forcing the gasses into the intake port. This is why positive pressure, created by the turbos, lessens carbon buildup as it's restricting reversion of combustion gasses.

Unfortunately the Braptor hasn't been out long for owners to experiment and I'm not aware of any long-term studies done on the 3.0L Ecoboost. I'd be open to reading any info though, just not from some guy projecting animation onto a wall. I will say it's a good overview of DI vs. port injection although it's pretty basic. There are big performance advantages to DI on both n/an and turbo motors. And many Toyotas use a throttle body injector, and not multi-port, to keep the valves clean. They've been doing it since the start of DI motors. No idea why Ford chose to forego a port or throttle body injector.

Understand that just because you're emptying a catch can that's full of oil, doesn't mean that oil is depositing on your intake valves and causing carbon buildup in the same ratio. Yes, a very, very small amount is in fact causing carbon buildup but if you were to install 20 catch cans, 10 on either bank, you'd still have carbon build up on the intake valves.

I know what you're thinking...what about the exhaust valves? After all, they're bathed in the exhaust gasses each combustion cycle. Well, they're almost as hot as the combustion chamber and thus, no condensation. Additionally, getting things hot, you can actually burn off the carbon. Take your DI motor out on the Autobahn and run it at top speed for two hours straight. Your intake valves will be as clean as a whistle!

So you are saying Ford Performance is selling me catch cans so I can reduce my emissions? Really? Ford Performance does not mention this. Are they lying to us?

Help protect your Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine with the dual air/oil separator from Ford Performance Parts. This is a must have for any serious off-road enthusiast!

• Fits 2022-2024 Bronco Raptor
• Dual system with left and right canisters, brackets, and hoses
• Precision molded canisters with unique filter media separates oil vapor from the air in the PCV system to help keep oil out of the intake
• Designed and engineered specifically to fit the Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine
• OEM quality hoses and fittings for high quality installation and function
• This is a highly engineered system designed specifically for your vehicle - not a universal kit - by the engineers that know your Bronco and 3.0L engine
• Canister is easy to drain by removing the PCV hoses from canister, removing canister, and draining oil
• Engineered and manufactured in the USA

 

[Ape Factory]

So you are saying Ford Performance is selling me catch cans so I can reduce my emissions? Really? Ford Performance does not mention this. Are they lying to me?

Help protect your Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine with the dual air/oil separator from Ford Performance Parts. This is a must have for any serious off-road enthusiast!

• Fits 2022-2024 Bronco Raptor
• Dual system with left and right canisters, brackets, and hoses
• Precision molded canisters with unique filter media separates oil vapor from the air in the PCV system to help keep oil out of the intake
• Designed and engineered specifically to fit the Bronco Raptor 3.0L engine
• OEM quality hoses and fittings for high quality installation and function
• This is a highly engineered system designed specifically for your vehicle - not a universal kit - by the engineers that know your Bronco and 3.0L engine
• Canister is easy to drain by removing the PCV hoses from canister, removing canister, and draining oil
• Engineered and manufactured in the USA

I never said that. Ford is selling it to make money.

 

[Roughstock]

I never said that. Ford is selling it to make money.

I understand Ford is selling catch cans to make money; however, if the only thing they do is reduce emissions, then they are lying to us.

If all they do is reduce emissions I would not have bought them.